Jesus and the Sinners
Lately, I have been re-thinking my stance on hangin' out with so called, "sinners." You know, those people that drink too much, curse too much, and generally just well...sin. Openly, that is. Those non-hypocritical types that don't go to church, don't even try to be "Godly," and well...The "poor in spirit." I began thinking about the "poor in spirit," this week and who the poor in spirit are exactly. What does it even mean to be poor in spirit?
Through much Christian debate, advise, and discussion, (when I say much--I mean about 2 days of thought and talking with 3 people--just so you know that I am not exaggerating), I have come to the conclusion that it means you know that your spirit is poor and you really, really need God. Now, here is my next question. Do we, as Christians, really think that our spirits are poor? Or are we like that man who prayed in church, saying, "God, I am so glad that I am not like that poor slob over there." Now, I know that your first initial reaction is going to be something like this, "nah, I am not like that." Think hard though. Are you? I know that when I began to really think about it I could come up with some pretty righteous prayers. "Dear God, Why do these people do that? I don't do that. Don't they get that that is wrong? Why can't they just be good!" Kinda like...me.
Then, I began to realize that Jesus didn't even hang out with the so-called "righteous." He said that the sick were the ones that needed a physician. So, I guess I have a confession to make. I haven't wanted to hang out with the un-righteous. As you have read from my previous blogs, I am a "scardie-cat," and the so-called "un-righteous" scare me to death. Why? Why, I ask myself, am I afraid? Am I afraid of having too much fun? Am I afraid that I will...sin? Or worse, what if I get there, and I discover that they are doing just fine...that they don't seem to need God. In that case, will it shake my faith? These are some questions that I continue to ask myself. How close do we get to the so-called "un-Godly?" And today, I am thinking...real close. Let it go. Hang out and just be yourself, BUT, don't judge and just listen. We'll see what happens. I'll let you know. This is my journey after all. It's scary for me, but it is getting less so every day.
posted by operamom at 7:50 PM
21 Comments:
so true snoops. Yet, I struggle with the issue of whether to have the "unsaved" over on my turf. Should I invite them over and associate closely with them? how are they to get to know a christian, if they never closely know one? that is what I get confused about. How close do I get? I know Jesus was part God, therefore had certain strengths that we don't, but didn't He call us to minister to the lost? I am very confused about this. Does that mean just by example alone, or are we supposed to befriend them?
i've been thinking more about what you said about us being in fleshly bodies and not being able to minister to them the way that Jesus did. hhmmmm....don't get offended, but do you think that that is a cop-out? sometimes i think it is just easier for us to surround ourselves with christians, so we don't risk stumbling. but, if we surround ourselves with christians, who are we really ministering to? how do the non-christians get truly ministered to if they are never around christians?
don't you think that Jesus offers us his divine spirit and if we walk with him day by day, and I mean every day, then we will be able to hang out with them and minister to them in his love?
Isn't surrounding ourselves with christians just another way of being lazy?
what are your thoughts?
snoopy, i think we are on line at the same time and typing at the same time.--your comment published at the same time as mine. I just read your last comment.
you are right. i tryed hangin' at the bars with them, and that doesn't work. needless to say, i hated it. but, if I have them on my turf, maybe that would be better.
Yes, you are definitely a sinner for your social drinking! for shame! J/K
I have to say that you hit the nail on the head with both of your soap-boxes. well said.
I still think that christians need to be associating with non-christians on a healthy turf more often, instead of hangin' out in our little "white-washed clicks."
titty bars excluded.
Peace, Snoopy. Absolutely! However, you are more than welcome to refer to me as Queen Fancy whenever you wish. =-) Totally kidding. TOTALLY kidding.
Great post, OpMom. Been at work all day. I'm off to bed, so I'll have to catch up on the comments tomorrow and join in then. Looking forward to it. G'night.
Wow, you guys can write some comments! Blogmania!
My two cents:
We should definitely befriend non-believers. We should definitely be careful as to how we spend our time. I think that the real kicker here is how we perceive non-believers. It's important that, as Christians, we think of them as Jesus does, and that's in complete and selfless love.
That we befriend them for who they really are. We see the good that God created in them. We see them as fellow human beings, as people that need the love of Jesus just like we do. That we respect and encourage them. That we include them. That we not judge them for behaving lost. They are lost. We are given grace. They need what we have.
I've found that to extend grace as my Lord does is not easy, and it takes prayer for me to see one as Jesus does. He desires all to come to Him. He loves that lost person just like he loves me.
And then, it seems a bit easier to discern what I should actually be doing to be their friend. Just what I'd do for any other friend, I suppose.
Most of my friends have always been non-believers. I'm used to being the weirdo. And they don't mind either. I don't think it should be a question whether or not we should befriend non-believers. Few things are more damaging to Christianity than our tendency to enclose ourselves in little bubbles where we don't have to associate with the pain of the 'real' world. A witness is a life; a person. How can we possibly have any impact on the world if we're not in it? I have no problem getting crap on me - it cleans off a lot easier than sin. And of course I'm not advocating hanging out at the tittie bar. In truth, some of the biggest moments of impact I've had with friends is when I've known my convictions and stood by them. I would hang out with them all day long until time to go to the tittie bar. Then I bug out and they know exactly why. I don't judge them and they know that too. It makes a difference.
Great discussion guys. I like you!
thanx a bunch cach--honored to have your thoughts here. I guess if you are truly a christian than you will bow out when it comes time to go to the tittie bar. If you are a strong enough christian--I mean daily walking with God--or semi-daily atleast, I think you can bow out of those not-so-nice worldly, a.k.a. "crap" activities. temporarily fun, though they may be.
Fancy pants--you could not have said that better. you hit the nail on the head with that one, and i need to post it on my fridge with my kids paintings. I guess I was just lately convicted of the fact that I really do think that i am better than those people and I was just "too disgusted" with their behavior to have them over. A hard realization for me to come to.
glad you and snoops kissed and made up queen fancy. love you both.
oh, one more thing. Cach--what do you mean by the crap washes off? Just curious to see if i could use your method.
When I say crap washes off, I mean this: we weren't meant to live sheltered pampered lives. In our lives we come in contact with the unclean and the ungodly all the time. We have our own little personal preferences and filters; we have already decided what we will and won't allow to get to us. Maybe we have an alcoholic brother for whom we care. Does it hurt us to see him suffer? Of course, but we put up with it because he's our brother and we love him. Maybe our best friend isn't doing right in her dating relationships. But she's our best friend, so we continue to love her and hope that we can help. And at the end of the day, we have to unload all of that 'crap.' But we're happy to do it because God called us to it. So we pray and know that there but for the grace of God go we. And that's what I'd call spiritual poverty.
But what many of us don't open up to is the knowledge that God has called us to love all people the way we love our brother and best friend. That means we need to make a daily commitment to stay steadfast and faithful to God no matter what crap gets slung at us that day. Our day shouldn't be filled with trying not to get dirty; our day should be filled with making sure we're doing God's will. We're not here to look good, we're here to love God. And if that means we need to learn to be okay with being hurt, being offended, being put down, being shocked, being laughed at, and having sin placed before our eyes and being dragged under our noses then so be it. It seems a very small thing to have all of that happen to us when we know we can go to God in prayer; when we know we can have forgiveness at the asking; when we know we can be cleaned up and set on our feet again.
Not to be confusing, I'm not suggesting we get involved in sin; I'm just saying that being around sin can only affect us inasmuch as we allow it to. We don't go drinking with our alcoholic brother and we don't help our best friend pick up guys. And we need to make a daily exercise of not allowing sin into our lives. Like I've said, we already choose what sin we will and won't let affect us. We just need to work harder at not letting any sin affect us as we open ourselves to love more at the risk of being hurt more. That may be the longest explanation of the simplest question, but it begins to describe what I mean.
cach- you said, "love more at the risk of being hurt more." see...there it is. that is what i am going to have to work on. now i am finally realizing that i really have led a charmed and sheltered life. i have just taken the easy way out a lot of times. I got so afraid of all things sinful, and angry, bitter, and un-loving. It was like that M. Night shalahan movie the sixth sense, except instead of "I see dead people," it was I see sin. I saw sin every where and would just become instantly depressed by it. I knew there was something wrong with me when I was starting to relate to the omish. It was like...ugh, let me go hide in the mountains. now, i have begun to realize how wrong my thinking was. I like what you said about how to "wash the crap" off. it's the principle of detachment from the book co-dependent no more, which is written for alcoholic relatives and spouses. i am sure that you have to use it in the ministry a lot.
more than that, it is realizing how poor in spirit that we all are. I am not where you are yet, but thankfully I am getting there, and it is a "happy place."
Good question, Snoopy. I guess it goes back to the idea of exercising discretion in all things. It probably depends on the friend, the reason they are over, how much control you have of the situation, etc.
Cach said, "We already choose what sin we will and won't let affect us."
We choose what we will and will not allow in our homes.
I also like what you said, Cach, that we work on opening ourselves up to love more. That's really what it is, opening ourselves up, making ourselves available, sincere, honest. We are the poor in spirit who need God.
My husband has a friend who is a Christian, and he has all kinds of friends from all walks of life. He never really talks much about his Christianity with them, but they know it is there. He hosts get togethers and stuff and makes no secret of the fact there will be no alcohol. Everybody, even the wild ones, always show up and they respect his wishes about the alcohol.
The guy cusses every so often (as do I) but the worldly people don't seem to take this badly. Actually, it is usually the Christians who get all up in arms about things like that. The way I look at it, if we don't talk the common man's language, they will never understand what we are trying to say-or even be interested in talking to us at all.
It is the big picture of how we live our lives that is important. HOw we love people, make them feel welcome, show them you really can live a successful life without littering it up with a bunch of crap.
Hey,by the way, guess who???
Snoop, scripture speaks often about 'guarding your eyes.' I don't know of anywhere in scripture that we're told about sins that we shouldn't even talk about. It may have been a topical reference in Jeremiah or Ezekiel, but it certainly wasn't a decree for all believers. As for guarding your eyes, I don't think Jesus means that we should shut them. Do you parade pornography in front of them? No. Do you use them to look at the porn star when that person is in your presence? I sure hope so. See, people aren't sin. We should never allow ourselves to disassociate with people because of their sin. That has nothing to do with keeping certain people away from children if it might be harmful to them. It just means that if we as Christians ever make someone feel that they aren't good enough for us or Christ then we have failed utterly.
cach--so true. and that is what i was guilty of. no more i tell you, no more! (says in a heroic voice)
BRAVO CRAIG! you speak like you are already of another world. so true. Yet, if someone that is not saved comes to us, and we do not conform, I still say that hanging out with them is okay. like i said before, on our turf, not on theirs. I just think that exclusion of someone because they are not a christian is wrong. I have been guilty of this in my life. yet, it is a fine, fine, fine, line as we have proven here.
craig--once again, excellent, excellent comment.
Craig,
Thank you for presenting such great Scripture. You got me really thinking about how these particular Scriptures relate to our subject here. I'd like to respond to the majority of your comment, but for the sake of time, I'll just take it bit by bit. So here we go:
First of all, for clarity's sake, I don't think any of us here are stating that we should love sin or desire to be part of the sin of the world. God's very clear about abstaining from sin and therefore being set apart. But that does not mean we abstain from making real, lasting, and meaningful relationships with non-believers.
You said:
Verses 14 and 15 (Matt 5:13-16) admonish us to be lights in the world. But the world won't be able to see that light if we "put it under a bushel" by running with unbelievers (aside: we can certainly be friendly and kind to unbelievers, but we ought not "run with" them). Instead, we must be "on a hill" or "on a candlestick", displayed in a high place where unbelievers can see our good works and glorify God.
#1) Pursuing a friendship (is this what you mean by "running with"?) with an unbeliever is not putting our light under a bushel. Behaving as one not saved and made righteous by Christ is putting that light out.
#2) Being salt, being a light, is showing that unbeliever the love of Christ. I believe that takes more than just being friendly and kind. It means being willing to meet them where they are at. No, not participate in ungodly behavior. But getting down in the dirt, so to speak. Understand them, help them, listen, give, show mercy. Matthew 9:12 says, " On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick."
#3) Let your light so shine before men. If the light is so far away from the world what good does it do? Is its warmth felt? Does its presence actually guide and illuminate? Or is it just seen from afar? What good is that?
That's it for tonight. Craig, I really appreciate your thoughtful comment. I think that you might relate "run with" to behaving in an ungodly way along with unbelievers. If this is the case, I'm with you. I just think a substantial relationship with unbelievers can be made, and that means spending time with them.
I must say, I disagree with Craig's interpretation of scripture. Whenever we use scripture to create dividing lines, we overstep our bounds. It is not our responsibility or place to decide who is on our side and who is not. It is not our place to decide who is saved and who is not. Those responsibilities lie with God alone. We are commanded to love all, serve all, and bring the gospel to all. When we decide who is a sinner, and therefore must be avoided, we step out of line.
Yes we are both sinners and saints. And neither condition takes us out of this world. Being holy does not mean being better or being separated. The 'set apart' aspect of holiness and sanctity is to have a belonging and purpose in God, not to be separated. God will take care of that at the end of days. Not now.
And we can't read what we want to into scattershot verses. 'Running with unbelievers' is not hiding our light under a bushel. Christ is talking about your faith being made evident through your actions. Jesus was often accused of being a glutton and a drunk because of the company he kept. And he didn't seem bothered by it. After all, it is not the well who need a physician; it is the sick. Jesus kept very socially questionable company but never acted as they did. That's letting your light shine before men. If your light is shining in the middle of a well-lit room, who notices? It must be shone in the darkness. And salt in the ancient world was used to cure and preserve meat among other things. It had to be consistent and used on different substance in order to have any effect.
Being yoked is a very different thing than being friends or being a witness. We can't view every relationship as a threat to our faith. How weak does that make us? God would have us come alongside unbelievers and raise them up. Why live in the fear that we'll always be dragged down?
As for suffering, of course God doesn't want us to be hurt, but he nonetheless knows we will be. That's part of living. Can we control everything that we encounter? Of course not. It is therefore imperative that we be strong in the Lord and be prepared to turn the other cheek when struck. What I've been getting at here is that we make the choice to be easily-offended and hurt so much of the time. We must choose differently.
I think we're coming to a sad conclusion here: I have never said that we should engage in sinful activity. I have simply said that in the course of being a Christian witness - an effective one who develops relationships with nonbelievers rather than just preaching at them - we are bound to see and hear things that will break our hearts. Let our hearts be broken! Much better for us to be hurt and have the opportunity to bear witness to Christ in our life than to remove ourselves from the situation because we have decided ahead of time that we're too good for it and lose that witness entirely. If we all decided not to invest in the lives of nonbelievers, Mother Teresa wouldn't have had a ministry. St. Francis of Assisi wouldn't either. Neither would Jesus have had one.
Why does investing in the lives of nonbelievers, being their friend, loving them, living among them, witnessing to them necessarily mean distorting the gospel and engaging in sinful behavior? We can't love people if we view them as sinners below us. We can't love people if we are only interested in preaching at them. We can't love people if we are just dropping scripture on them and washing our hands of the responsibility to communicate the gospel. We must engage them on every level without wavering one instant from our relationship with Christ. We must befriend them. We must value them. We must love them, really love them; not just say we do.
Fancy beat me to the comment here. Great stuff, Fancy. Well said.
wow fancy and cach. well said both of you. I know that i have tried it both ways. hanging out with "sinners" (even though we all are ofcourse--that being an essential point), and not hanging out with "sinners." I find that i have a deep sadness in my heart when I just view these people from a distance and "pray for them." the problem is, i find it easier to just hang out with christians. i have to stick closer to Christ when I am with non-christians, and that is more difficult.
i think that the bottom line for me is taking off my "white washed clothes" and saying "there I go, but for the grace of God." there is no difference between them and me, except Christ. I have Him, and if I pity them for not having Christ, then that pity brings me to them.
that said, i want you all to know how much i appreciate your comments. i can't say it enough. all of you are more well-spoken than I and it has been a great sharing of thoughts.
Post a Comment
<< Home